Signs, Science & Creature from the Earth

MSA objected to my literal approach to studying the Quran 

My Response: Of course, Allah knows best! 

I try to understand through whatever little knowledge of science we have, but science itself is in the toddler stage - discovering and learning, and then unlearning to learn better. 

From the little we think we know, an organism's genome (complete set of DNA) contains all the information needed to build and maintain that organism. In humans, all cells with a nucleus contain a copy of the entire genome, about 3 billion DNA base pairs. We have come to know that the DNA molecule is a double-helix. We have also come to know that the heart muscle is also a double-helix. Though science has not yet established any connection between the shape of the heart and the shape of the DNA, it has discovered neurons in the heart which communicate with the brain. 

Quran and prior scriptures inform us of the huge importance of the heart. The more we discover, the more we begin to understand, the deeper the realisation of how much we do not know. All I know is that the Creator who taught us speech has complete command over language and thus the guidance He has sent us must be literally accurate and lucid. Since the Quran repeatedly exhorts the use of 'aql', I try to make sense of what I read. I may understand this, I may not understand that, but as I try to understand, I continue on this amazing, wondrous journey of fascination with the text of the Quran. 

Samiya 

http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/  

MSA responded: "I try to understand through whatever little knowledge of science we have, but science itself is in the toddler stage - discovering and learning, and then unlearning to learn better."

Agreeing with the above stipulation, I humbly submit that placing science side-by side with the Quran is unfair to the former.

For: 

-Science has been existing from time immemorial. It picked up speed only after humans started thinking 'scientifically.' Science took off like a phantom in the late 1700s. If considered the age of science from this angle, it is about 400 years old.

-Science does not claim that what it says about something is final. Science is based on experiments. It conducts them, repeats them, checks and rechecks its findings and when science is relatively confident with them, only then it shares its experiments and findings with us. But when the finding of an experiment is found to be defective or untrue, science reverses itself and continues to experiment to go to the bottom of the matter at hand.

-Despite its young age, science has given us so many things that we can hardly count just in one go. The internet that we have been using for communication is a gift of science. The cell phone, which we use so often is also a gift of science. The instruments that surgeons use to perform surgery on human hearts came from science. The life-saving drugs owe their origin to science.

-Conversely, what the Religious Scriptures tell us is final. No experiment is required, nor any proof is called for, or is ever produced.

Religions cannot reverse what these taught their adherents. One example should suffice here: 

-Three major religions of the world tell us that the first two humans were created in heaven, and then pushed to the earth after the couple disobeyed their creator's order. The creation of those two humans cannot be replicated on earth, nor can it be proven with

any testimony or evidence. Just believing in what the Scriptures tell us is the "belief" that their followers must follow without asking questions. The Quran makes believing in the "Unseen" a cardinal belief for all the Muslims.

-Islam is the latest monotheistic religion. To a great extent, it succeeded Judaism and Christianity. Islam is over 1400 years old. If compared with science, Islam is older to it by about 1000 years.

-Despite being around for such a long period of time, we can hardly find any scientific contribution from this religion. It does not mean that Muslims have contributed nothing to the wellbeing of mankind. They have, but it was not due to Islam, as what the Jews, Christians and the followers of other religions have given to humanity was also not due to the their religious beliefs.

-Scientists were curious, asked questions, sought answers and thus their scientific contributions, which we see all around us today, came to their grip in the form of answers to questions they asked of themselves and of others who had answers to them. 

-In the world of religions, asking questions is often a taboo. Seeking truth is covertly forbidden. Inquiring into unknown is not generally encouraged, or appreciated. Sharing thoughts that are not religiously sanctioned is frowned up, and often the bearers of such thoughts are scorned, sanctioned, ex-communicated or declared unwanted in the societies they belong to.

Therefore, I strongly believe science and religions cannot be partners in endeavors that many humans undertake to make our lives easier and comfortable. Religions are more interested in the devotions of their followers. Offering Salat five times a day, is one of them.

In short, the life of hereafter for the religionists takes precedence over all things and matters on earth! Science is above this; it places no demands on the beneficiaries of its inventions, nor does it ask for a 'thank you' from the people who get a new life with its help!! 

My Response: [Quran 27:82] And when (is) fulfilled the word against them, We will bring forth for them a creature from the earth speaking to them, that the people were, of Our Signs, not certain. 

[http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/82/ ]

You state that 'Science is above this; it places no demands on the beneficiaries of its inventions, nor does it ask for a 'thank you' from the people who get a new life with its help!!'  

The day is not far when Science will demand thanks, and those who did not strengthen their faith will knowledge will be deceived into worshipping the science which would appear to benefit them. 

[Quran 36:69,70] And not We taught him [the] poetry, and not it is befitting for him. Not it (is) except a Reminder and a Quran clear, To warn (him) who is alive and may be proved true the Word against the disbelievers. 

[http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/69/ ; http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/70/ ] 

AP asks: Can  you tell me, Samyia, what is the point of your message. What are you trying to proof with the Qur'an verses you sent? thanks 

Answer: Just reminding those who believe that eventually our faith will be put to the test, hence it is essential that we have assured faith. To my mind, that is only possible through studying the scriptures and understanding the verses, employing all our faculties of reasoning and logic. MSA contends that science should not be employed to understand the verses of the scripture. I disagree. Employing science helps us verify if the scripture claiming divine origin is indeed so or not, and if it is from the Creator, then understanding what it says becomes the duty of the recipient. After all, it's a message from The Lord of the Worlds!  

Quran & Science

MU wrote: I feel sorry for these religionists who are trying their best to save gasping arab religion. They are interpreting man made political book of 7th century in the light of knowledge of science. These understandings are not seen in all older interpretations. But this is not a point, science is progressive and evolutionary subject. Sometime it contradicts it's own previous observations. The question is what these religionists and their god will do, if tomorrow science will say, there was no Big Bang and give another reason of it. 

My Response: It is true that as science progresses, our understanding of the world evolves with it, and as science gets a truer knowledge of the world, the clearer the understanding will become. However, this does not absolve us of our responsibility to study the book we believe is sent by God, for our guidance, who we believe created it all.  

While there might exist the possibility that it may be proved wrong, there is also the wonderful possibility that it will be proved true! For example, in my study of the factual accuracy of the Quran, so far I am wondrously delighted to learn that science is just discovering and verifying the Quran's claim that: 
water has been delivered to the Earth
[http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/10/origins-of-water.html ]; 
that the comets are not balls of ice and dust but rather made of 'teenin lazib'
[http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/08/kawakib-planets-comets-and-other-rocky.html ]; 
that the explanation of the locations that Dhu-al-Qarnayn visited can be logically understood through our knowledge about the polar regions
[http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/06/dhu-al-qarnayn-polar-regions-of-earth.html ]; 
and that as forewarned, the seas are beginning to heat up
[http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/10/when-seas-boil.html ] 
and so on. 

The believers responsibility is to diligently study the Book, follow the guidance in it, and share their understanding of the reminder, so that other believers can also have assured faith in the unseen and trust in the unverifiable truths that the Book speaks of. 

And Allah knows best!  

[Quran 15:86] For verily it is thy Lord who is the Master-Creator, knowing all things.   

Quran: Fact or Fiction

Related posts:

Blog: Signs and Science

Factual Accuracy of the Quran

In between a discussion with Mr. G, Mr ST quipped: 

Right, right. And the solid Roof that Allah built for our security over our Earth built by Allah like our Bed, the Paradise and Hell in Sky, the 7 Skies etc. can not be seen by Humans or their Science either. 

We are 5 years old Kids and we must believe in Fair Tales of Allah, not facts of Science.

My response: I've been studying the factual accuracy of the Quran. Please see: http://signsandscience.blogspot.com 

Mr. ST responds: I had read all that kind of stuff half a century ago so, don't tell me, I am now going to find anything new in it, 5 years old Kid ...!

Later the same day, Mr. ST asks:  

But please tell us Atheists, who should we believe you instead of thinking, Allah or God was creation of Human Minds since it has never proven that it really exists?

* Where are Paradise and Hell of Allah or God in Sky?

* Why they had to be Physically non existent like Allah or God?

* Why is Earth not flat like Allah had spread it like a Carpet and declared it like a Bed or 'farash' for us?

* Why Sun is shining on other side of Earth after it has turned dark, where we live instead of prostrating to Throne of Allah and waiting for his commands to rise from East as Allah had said in Qoraan? 

* Why the Roof that Allah had built over Earth calling it a Sky is not existence?

* Why we do not find Sun and Stars circling around Earth as Allah had told us that they do?

* Why we do not find ourselves born out of Blood Clot?

You see, you may not even understand these questions because we know, your Brain is like a 5 years old Kid, who does not understand between Fact and Fiction so please stop wasting our time with your Childish B.S. ...! 

My Reply: I cannot force you to read my blog[http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/] but should you choose to read it, you might be surprised! If you do indulge, suggest you start with the following: 

http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/06/dhu-al-qarnayn-polar-regions-of-earth.html 

http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/05/people-of-cave.html 

http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/10/creation.html 

http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/10/sunrise-from-west.html 

Factual Accuracy of the Quran

After a discussion on whether Quran is human or divine in origin: 

Okay, let’s leave aside whether this is a book about God by humans, or a book from God about humans. 

Let’s discuss the factual accuracy part first. You ask “how we can study something factually, with so many authoritative arguments and divine authority getting in the way?” The authoritative arguments and divine authority are only for those who consider the Quran from God. For all others, its just book giving warnings and glad tidings about a future (hereafter) we cannot know of otherwise. It explains giving many examples and similitudes, and those explanations draw the reader’s attention to much that we can verify for factual accuracy. 

For instance, the description of developmental stages of the human embryo has been verified by modern technology such as high-powered microscopes, similarly that the gender of the child is determined by the male sperm, that humans were formed first from clay (check RNA research) and then from ‘despised fluid’. As per modern science findings, and contrary to general religious perception, no where does the Quran state that Adam was the first human. Rather, it makes two statements: (a) creation of Adam and Jesus was similar: I take it to mean that both were created outside the normal human development process, without fathers: that is a matter of faith; however the other statement about humans, which is of interest to me from an evolutionary point of view, is that the Quran poses the question that wasn’t there a period of time over humans when they were unremembered / not mentioned? 

If we consider verses mentioning time, it compares one measure of time with another measure of time, the concept of relativity of time has only been accepted by the scientific community for a century or so, whereas the Quran was revealed over fourteen centuries ago. It speaks of a land where the sun is rising and there is no protection from Sun: we now know the in the Antarctic spring, a continent-wide hole forms in the ozone. 

Where it foretold the defeat of the Romans, it stated that they will be defeated in the lowest land: we now know that the region of the Dead Sea is the lowest point on Earth’s surface, in terms of heights measured in sea level, or as wikipedia describes: 'lowest elevation on land'

The Quran also stated that the body of the Pharaoh who drowned chasing Moses has been preserved. It was only in the last century that such a mummy was discovered about which scientists theorise that the cause of death was drowning. 

The Quran claims that all creatures form communities like humans, and scientists are discovering more and more evidence for the same. 

The Quran mentions many such things which can be verified for factual accuracy through honest, sincere, meticulous study and research.  

Once you verify for yourself whether you find this book to be written by humans or sent by someone who really knows everything about everything, then its up to your will and choice whether to accept the theology in it. Willing and loving worship can only be possible once one is sure about their faith and beliefs. The paths may be different, some observe nature and their hearts and minds bear witness to an unseen Creator, some have experiences that just can't be explained as natural, some find scientific evidence, there are so many ways to stumble upon faith. The main purpose is to discover, appreciate and worship God, with gratitude for this gift of life, and hopes for a wonderful future. 

Faith and Doubt

Excerpts of an email conversation I (SI) had with a mathematician (B)  

B: I don't ask you to abandon your faith, but to doubt the literacy of its rendering. 

SI: Then it would no longer be faith! 

  

B: Jews, christians, and muslims were more open to, if not more aware of, the Platonist way to conceive/search God in their earlier periods, but eventually the mainstream continues to stick on the Aristotelian dogma, like notably, the existence of some primitively physical beings. 

SI: I believe in [1] Allah, [2] His Angels, [3] His Books, [4] His Messengers, [5] The Latter Day (of destruction and re-creation), [6] Predestination (all fate, good or otherwise, is from Allah, the Most High), [7] Resurrection after Death. I believe in it just like I believe I’m alive in the present moment and that I will be dead at some future moment.   

  

B: To progress in the fundamental, we have to progress in doubting *almost* everything. OK?

SI: I am willing to doubt reason and logic and all other constructs of human intellect including my own. I am willing to question your theory and assumptions and proofs, in an effort to arrive at the possible truth. However, I am not willing to sacrifice faith on the altar of doubt. I do not believe that science has the ability to conceive God but I’m a believer in science’ ability to reason the existence of God, without presuming the existence of God. I think your comp represents the latter approach. That is why it interests me. 

  

B: We will never sacrifice faith. How could we? Why should we? On the contrary, faith is what really remains when you attempt the universal doubt. Of course, I distinguish faith in God, from faith in anything a human can relate to God. By experience I know it is difficult to do that by mail. I am curious to see how much you are open to science/doubt, and so how much deep is your faith. (and I test myself in passing, and everybody is invited to seized the opportunity). 

SI: My faith encourages me to pursue the sciences, to use my faculties and intelligence for reason and logic, and the study of the sciences is not doubt. Doubt is the lack of faith! 

  

B: Doubt about God, is a lack of faith. Doubt about humans and all what they say, especially on God, is an evidence of faith. All texts, all theories, all reports, all journals, all books, can and should be put in doubt, always, if you are confident enough in the search of truth. 

SI: Agree in principle, differ in detail. 

And about a couple of weeks later  

B: I am not sure I commented on this. It might be the heart of the matter. Science is only doubt. But as Descartes saw, we cannot doubt of everything, and so, we do trust something. The more we are able to doubt, the more we can see what remains undoubtable, and faith can build on that. So, those who have the faith have no problem doubting any theories, texts, etc. The faith rises from within, and is definitely beyond words, texts, theories, equations,  etc. The universal machines are confronted to something similar when they introspect themselves (in the sense of Kleene second recursion diagonal way). In front of the absolute truth, science can only augment the doubt, but without ever needing to abandon faith. It is the faith in the ineffable which invites the doubt on *all* the fables. 

An atheist/agnostic responded: So you must have faith - but not in anything in particular? 

  

Religion and Science

Question: 'Science and religion both originate from the same source'. What does this mean? Science is a man made construct. Its a human form of knowledge. What source does science originate from?
Answer: Evolution existed millions of years before Darwin or Dawkins, right? The Universe, the laws of physics, the science has been there all along. We humans have simply discovered and figured out ways to harness science.
Similarly, if any of the holy books is actually divine, then it must have also originated from the same source as the science... the Creator must be the same, and must know what He's talking about.
We make hypotheses, build theories and reject most of them all the time. The few that pass the test are accepted as facts of science, which again may undergo revision a few centuries down. Similarly, we need to objectively study scripture and see if it makes sense. I think its important if we are ever to evolve from the dogmatic limbo we are in. Personally, to me the Quran does. Many muslims profess faith, but fear losing faith if exposed to scientific scrutiny. Understanding the same origin will help them cross the bridge without fear.

Comment: Endorsing the effort to try to find more "scientific facts" from the Quran? I think it cheapens both fields
Answer: Physicists search for a grand unified theory of Physics. Does that mean they are cheapening the Electromagnetic or the Strong or the Weak force or Gravity? Objective study and exploration of all realms and sources of knowledge doesn't cheapen any one... it simply enriches and provides a wider perspective, similar to how Liberal Arts allow you to delve in and explore different, seemingly unrelated areas of study, broadening your horizon.

Splitting of the Nile

Someone shared this news about a scientific study on winds parting water: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68K33520100921
My response: Glory to God
Finally, science is coming round to proving that what is written in the scriptures is actually possible. Wonder why people feel science and religion are incompatible? Coming from the same person (God), they must complement each other, or so I think :)
Thanks for sharing,
Research Article: Dynamics of Wind Setdown at Suez and the Eastern Nile Delta
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012481

Reading Scientific and Mathematical proofs into Holy Books?

Question: I have a deep concern with the practice of reading scientific and mathematical proofs into holy books that were written by persons living in a pre scientific age. Recently in my country it became popular for some biblical scholars to claim that the Old Testament contained secret number codes, and that these number codes could be used to predict future events. Some argued that only God could have inserted these number codes into the old testament, and that this was clearly proof that the old testament had God as its source. Computer modelling has since shown that the appearance of certain numbers within the old testament is purely random, and that it is wrong to read things into the ancient texts that were never intended by the original writers.
I also have major fears of persons insisting that all of THEIR holy texts should be taken literally. I know of some Orthodox Jews who believe that they have the correct understanding of their holy books, and that only they are being faithful to the teachings and commands of God. My Roman Catholic friends believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that only they have a full and accurate understanding of the teachings and commands of God. My Muslim friends believe that only they have the true teachings and commands from God. Now to my mind, something is clearly not right here, which is why I asked my original question about trusting any of the holy scriptures. I have no doubt about the existence of God, anyone who studies the wonders of science would be hard pressed to say otherwise. But I do still see the big religions as being man made and largely male dominated, yet I do not see or sense that God is male. Clearly I have much more to explore and learn !!!!

Answer: We are told by Allah in the Quran that he has sent numerous prophets and revealed various books to mankind, and that as Muslims, we have to believe in them, and respect them.
Having said that, we are also informed that people have over the ages changed the message to suit their interests, so that now they are no longer in their pure form.
We are also told that Allah Himself takes the responsibility of protecting the Quran from changes as it is the final revelation till the end of time, and no other prophet will hence be sent for the guidance of humanity. The Quran is a guidance for all humanity, not just Muslims.
Furthermore, the reader of the Quran is constantly challenged to ponder and reflect upon the message and the signs all around. We are urged to study and evaluate critically, and then believe.
The belief that comes from such understanding and evaluation is naturally one of complete faith and submission…….. it just cannot be otherwise.
I understand your concern, but that is the litmus test……… if it was written by ‘persons living in a pre scientific age’ it is bound to have errors intermixed with some truths that their Prophet informed them of and they were able to record.
Whereas if it is a book from God, protected by God, unadulterated by humans, it should definitely contain no errors as the Creator knows exactly what He created and is not limited in knowledge, nor has any need to lie.
We can theorize all we want based on our knowledge, understanding, intellect and heart ( and we should, as it is an important part of trying to understand), but there has to be some way of testing these theories………. one is to put it to the test of science!
I hope you understand what I’m trying to explain……….. the Holy Quran is a book of Guidance and not a text book of science………… yet since it is from God, whatever scientific phenomenon it refers to should be verifiable……… if not, then we would face the same dilemma other ‘people of the book’ face…. that some of it is from God, some portions written by humans, and it would be a constant challenge sifting out the primary from the secondary.
Were you able to go through the links I sent you earlier…tell me what you think of them?

As far as God being a he or she is concerned, God is above and beyond that. God has created in pairs, males and females for reproductive purposes of moral beings, while God is immortal, has always been and will always be, and thus has no need to be either male or female. Referring to God as He/Him is just a traditional/cultural/linguistical/anthropological way of addressing or referring to God.

I was born in a traditional muslim family which practiced Islam as it is practiced in the sub-continent. Obviously a lot of culture, and influence of Hinduism, Sikhism, etc was also there. Luckily, my dad always believed in critical evaluation while being religious at the same time, thus from a very early age, I was encouraged to understand and separate religious ‘do’ from all other doooos, thus helping me understand how simple and true the original message of Islam was as compared to the complicated practices of ‘evolved’ societies. I was also able to draw upon the works of a lot of scholars who have studied the Quran from different angles and helped establish that it is indeed the true unadulterated word of God. Also, studying other religions and faith systems, I have come to understand that all contain some element of truth, but the message has somehow been distorted over time, something that Allah Himself has already informed us about, as mentioned above. Joining this group was part of the same journey….. I needed to interact with actual people of other beliefs and understand how come they also so strongly believe in whatever they believe in. Its been a wonderful journey, enriching me with new ideas, thoughts and ways of looking at things. This is a great group indeed. Hope your journey here is just as rewarding as mine has been.

Scientific accuracy of the hadith

Question: http://www.quran.org/science/origin.htm Well done! A fascinating exposition. Do the Hadith also contain examples?

Answer: Hadith are books written by humans........ they are prone to a lot of errors and memory lapses; scholars try to sift out the authentic, but even then, again its human work and subject to errors. Can't take it as an article of faith. I personally feel that since we have the Quran in its original form, why not concentrate on getting all spiritual information from it first, and then diversify to other books. Having been born in a muslim family, I've been blessed to have the Quran in my life all along, and I still find it to be an inexhaustible source of knowledge; as I age, and hopefully grow 'wiser', I continue to keep learning more and more from the same verses....... its just amazing how this book addresses all mental levels, and continues to fascinate and educate. Thus, I choose not to diversify yet. I do keep hearing different hadiths, I do read up books about the Prophet and his times, but I do know that all these are works of history, and just that.

Dawkins shreds Harun Yahya's Atlas of Creation

Q: Here is a video of Dawkins talking about the Harun Yahya's Atlas of Creation for the first 20 minutes. The remaining 20 minutes are devoted to Q&A and you see a good exchange on the topic of Islamic creationism. It is also great to see Pervez Hoodbhoy mentioned couple of times in the session and an acknowledgement of his efforts for the popularization of science in Pakistan.
For Video... Richard Dawkins on Harun Yahya’s Atlas of Creation (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8861534404717969199)

A: First, as I’ve also posted earlier, I agree with SH’s assertion that “an unnecessary emphasis on evolution-atheism link by many scientists may be the biggest barrier”. Personally, I have no problem ascribing the “Creation of the Process of Evolution” to Allah……… he can do everything, not just create from clay! And it does not contradict my belief in the literal translation of the Quran.
I saw the video, visited Richard Dawkins’ website and forum, and downloaded the pdf copy of Harun Yahya’s Atlas of Creation. I checked for the ‘eel-snake’ and the ‘fishfly-hook’ images on the pages as pointed out by Richard Dawkins but could not find them in Harun Yahya’s book. Taxonomically or Biologically, I do not know how accurate or not Harun Yahya’s book is; but then Richard Dawkins also does not appear to be giving exact/accurate objections either.